Wednesday, January 11, 2012
Thoughts on Scoring the Decathlon for Masters...
Haven't written in quite a while, I thought maybe I would start up again by putting my thoughts on decathlon scores for masters down on paper. It's easy for anyone to see by looking at the records and reasonably deep all-time lists that scores are lower for masters, even after age adjustments, than for the open-aged. The average world best using the age groups 40-75, which are the 8 age groups that really count for masters, is 8069. Now, 8069 is a decent score for a 25 year old, but it's nearly 1000 points (10.6%) under the open world record. When I look at the marks necessary for me in the 45 age group to score 9026, it seems inhumanly possible. For anyone to even have those 10 performances as PB's after 45 would be extremely difficult, let alone doing them all at once. Furthermore, I compared the total score for the world best mark by young decathletes in each decathlon event(decs over 8k) for the open guys and get 10319; for the same 8 masters age groups as above I get an average of 9200. Actually I was surprised it's even over 9k. The difference there is 10.8%. Furtherfurthermore, I compared a decathlon score using last year's best overall marks from each age group in each decathlon event between masters and the open bests, and the difference here is 11892 to an average of 10760, a difference of 9.5%.
My assertion is that the current age graded tables might be fine for single events(or each decathlon event taken singly), and certainly fine for fairly determining the order of finish for any particular competition, but it's not a sufficient or fair means for comparing a decathlon score by a master to an open score.
The reasons, in my opinion, are(in some/no particular order): 1) it's harder to train for 10 events as a master than when young. The older body is slower to recover from workouts, which affects every athlete past 40, but I would submit the effect is exaggerated for decathletes. 2) The functional career span for the open decathlete is around 14 years(20-34), but once you're over the hill, your body is constantly deteriorating. In other words, you're at your peak or near it for several years, but you're only 45 or 67 for one year. Although I haven’t calculated the average number of decathlons the young guys do at/near their peak, but certainly at least 20, and some do many more than that. Roman Sebrle did 39 decathlons over 8000 points between the ages of 22-32 We masters can only do at most 4-5 during the first two years in any particular age group. 3) Larger/heavier athletes tend to have a tougher time with the running and jumping events as they age, but young athletes overcome this with their energy and elasticity, and in fact use it to their advantage in the throwing events.
The first issue at hand is, why age grade at all? The answer is that in the higher age groups, some athletes weren't able to get any points for their performance in certain events using the open tables, so they would just start the event, but then not finish. This satisfies the requirement that each event be attempted, but ruins the spirit of the competition. Age grading allows the older athlete who wants to do a decathlon, and runs 22 seconds in the hurdles, to get some real points for the effort. Handicapping for age does make sense and lends some elegance and authority to the whole affair, and the people involved with doing the statistics and math to come up the current tables have been very diligent and come up with numbers that are probably meaningful. The alternative to age grading each event would be to just handicap the total based on the open tables, with some other kind of adjustment for an event where the athlete can’t score any points.
Before I submit the results of my own age-grading calculations , I'll admit one can also say: the best athletes in the world in their best condition do athletics in their 20's, and then they tend to stop. Very few top elite tracksters go on to work out and compete as hard as masters. This should explain some discrepancy between the open world record, and the over-40 marks. If everybody doing the decathlon as a master had scored over 8000 points as a youngster, then yes, the averages for masters scores would be higher. But I'm here to tell you Roman Sebrle will not be able to score an age-graded 9026 as a 45 year old, no matter how hard he trains, but I hope to God he tries because it would be fun to watch. One can see the result of the current age-graded tables on Sebrle’s 8109 from last summer at age 36: 8440, an adjustment of 331 points or 4%. Sebrle scored over 8440 20 times during his prime, so the question is: is the discrepancy due to a lesser training regimen, is Roman not aging well, or are the age adjustments just too low? I suggest the latter. Although the age-graded tables don’t start until 35, I think this is already well past the prime of the average decathlete. The last time someone over 26 broke the world record was Bill Toomey back in the 60’s, and frankly he had some extenuating circumstances that allowed that to happen, namely that he started the dec at later age and had health problems(in other words he might have had his best score earlier if he had started training for the decathlon in high school), Sebrle is one of only 4 guys to score over 8000 after 35, and I’ve found just 5 gentlemen that scored over 8K in their prime who have done decathlons after 40, so there’s not a lot of data to draw from on that front. There are, however, many hundreds of people that have done decathlons as masters, including many very good athletes, so in total there’s probably enough data statistically speaking to make accurate adjustments.
So the method I came up with is to establish a performance for each age group from open to 75 that represents the best that a decathlete should expect to perform in any particular event for that age group. This is for a world class decathlete in top shape and relatively balanced between all 10 events. No one athlete should expect to achieve all 10 of these marks in one decathlon. To create the baseline in the open class, I calculated the average of the best mark in the world in each event for each of the past 20 years by a decathlete who scored over 8000 points. That point total comes out to 9509. As an aside, I estimated what I thought the marks should be and came up with 9475. I’m just a decathlon nerd I guess.
Those marks, along with the rest of my calculations are on the linked spreadsheet. Then, for each age group starting with 35, I tried to come up with a comparable performance and make them fit on a graph in a relatively smooth curve. I started with the best mark that a decathlete in that age group had ever done in that event, and then adjusted from there to make it fit the curve better with consideration as to whether the mark was an outlier by comparing it to the second and third best marks in the age group event. Finally, I compared the graphed curve I had at that point to the curve of the world records for the event by age group.
I like the results of this method; while not perfect event by event for every person, overall, it's more satisfying to me intuitively. The average using my factors for the 8 age groups identified above comes to 8425. Still not 9026, but closer. I think this difference now can be attributed to the factors mentioned above. In the two youngest masters age groups, 35 and 40, the scores are now higher than the PBs for those guys as open athletes, but I don't have a problem with this. Kip Janvrin's ability at 35 and 40 in relation to his average performance during his peak career really is fantastic, and I believe his age adjusted scores should be the 8820 and 8816 that I calculated.
The factors are not meant to exactly "predict" what an athlete should have been capable in each event, but for the average of 10 events, there should be some correlation, or else what's the point to coming up with age factors at all?
I absolutely welcome any and all comments relating to my thinking on this, just keep the language clean!
Monday, October 31, 2011
2011 Decathlons
Well, it's been a long time since my last post and a couple things have occurred in the meantime. The national masters decathlon in Dallas in June was a heartbreaking close brush with the WR in my age group. Backing up one step, just before I went to Dallas, I looked at the website that lists all the masters records and saw that the mark that had been the record for the decathlon in my age group had been thrown out, probably because it was determined to be wind-aided in hindsight. So the record dropped from 76-something to 7480, which gave me a better chance. The facilities were almost perfect, and even the 100 degree heat wasn't so bad because we had an air-conditioned gymnasium we could hang out in in between events, and even warm up in. The decathlon was going great from event to event, but my left hamstring was so tight I really couldn't stretch it at all. It got sore after a hard interval workout a couple weeks before, and just never loosened up, then I injured it very slightly doing some starts. I knew I was tempting fate, but I felt good otherwise, and really never considered dropping out because of the hamstring. On my second attempt at 3.80m in the vault, which was the height I made in training just the week before, I pulled the hamstring pretty badly. I had to stop the vault immediately, and I could only hope that it would loosen up before the 1500. I was still able to throw the javelin OK, and even threw a PB 39.80, but there was no joy in the 1500. I just needed to run a 5:20 to score over 7480 and break the WR, but I just couldn't stride out at all. A little over three weeks later I would run a 5:03 in the World Championships, so I know I would have been able to run 5:20 in Dallas. So, I had to settle for 6820 from 9 events. It was really heartbreaking to be so close to the record and see it slip away knowing I might not get that close again. The marks were: 12.20 6.32 11.43 1.73 55.36 15.90 38.01 3.70 39.80. The high jump was bad, but otherwise everything was on plan. The long jump was from behind the board, so it was probably close to 6.50!
So at that point I had about 3.5 weeks to rest my leg before the Worlds, and as I left Dallas I really had ZERO hope that I would be able to do that. I had trouble driving, just getting in and out of the car, and I could barely sit down because of the pain. I shunned all the fancy-smancy new-age crap like lasers and deep tissue massage, and just started running up stairs after about 4 days. Lo and behold, it started loosening up pretty quickly, and I progressed from stairs to jogging to running, to some longer intervals, and eventually to a little bit of sprinting and hurdling. It wasn't 100% in Sacramento, but I got through it and won, which was the plan. The heat there seemed even more intense than Dallas, and we didn't have an air-conditioned building, although I did sit in the car a little bit. I started out thinking that if I could just make it through the decathlon I would win, but a guy showed up from Puerto Rico that decided to make my life difficult. He was a very good athlete, apparently ran a 47s 400 when he was 20, and had done decathlons back in the day at the same time I did. My sprints and LJ were kind of bad like I expected, but my second day was pretty good with PBs in the javelin and 1500. Because Rosado had a good javelin throw, I was actually still behind him going into the 1500 and had to beat him by 5 seconds to win. I went out conservatively, a pace that I knew would get me under 5:10 thinking that would be good enough to win, but I felt good after a couple laps, and could tell that Rosado was close, so I started to pick it up, and with 400m to go, I could tell he was still just about 5 seconds back, so I gave it all I had and beat him by 8 seconds. My time was 5:03. It was the closest battle of all the age groups at Worlds, and the only one with two guys over 7000. My performances scored as a 40 year old would have won the 40 age group as well.
So at that point I had about 3.5 weeks to rest my leg before the Worlds, and as I left Dallas I really had ZERO hope that I would be able to do that. I had trouble driving, just getting in and out of the car, and I could barely sit down because of the pain. I shunned all the fancy-smancy new-age crap like lasers and deep tissue massage, and just started running up stairs after about 4 days. Lo and behold, it started loosening up pretty quickly, and I progressed from stairs to jogging to running, to some longer intervals, and eventually to a little bit of sprinting and hurdling. It wasn't 100% in Sacramento, but I got through it and won, which was the plan. The heat there seemed even more intense than Dallas, and we didn't have an air-conditioned building, although I did sit in the car a little bit. I started out thinking that if I could just make it through the decathlon I would win, but a guy showed up from Puerto Rico that decided to make my life difficult. He was a very good athlete, apparently ran a 47s 400 when he was 20, and had done decathlons back in the day at the same time I did. My sprints and LJ were kind of bad like I expected, but my second day was pretty good with PBs in the javelin and 1500. Because Rosado had a good javelin throw, I was actually still behind him going into the 1500 and had to beat him by 5 seconds to win. I went out conservatively, a pace that I knew would get me under 5:10 thinking that would be good enough to win, but I felt good after a couple laps, and could tell that Rosado was close, so I started to pick it up, and with 400m to go, I could tell he was still just about 5 seconds back, so I gave it all I had and beat him by 8 seconds. My time was 5:03. It was the closest battle of all the age groups at Worlds, and the only one with two guys over 7000. My performances scored as a 40 year old would have won the 40 age group as well.
Friday, June 3, 2011
One Week to Go
Training is still good, an avalanche of PB's in practice, 55.1 400m, mid 24's 200m, 19-6 LJ from half approach, 138-0 javelin, 12-6 vault. PB's from meets and training over the past couple seasons now add up to 7978 (pre-2010 age adjustments) vs. 7502 for American Record and 7767 for WR. So I have some pretty good leeway over the AR, but the WR is a little skinnier.
Masters PBs with age-graded open equivalent for points purposes:
11.94....11.09
6.35.....7.33(24-0)
12.09....14.53(47-8)
1.82.....2.01(6-7)
55.10....49.88
15.60....14.28
38.70....46.63(152-11)
3.81.....4.38(14-4.5)
42.00....49.21(161-5)
4:57.00..4:31.0
I should be able to go into the decathlon next week pain-free, which will be a first. I'm more apprehensive about the heat because the forcast is still for near 100. I'll have to make sure I drink enough so that I don't get cramps like I did last year in Joplin. Here's workout videos from yesterdays vertical jump practice:
The high jump is over a bungee around 6'. taking off too far out.
the vault is 12-6 with a 14' 155 from 6steps(81')
Masters PBs with age-graded open equivalent for points purposes:
11.94....11.09
6.35.....7.33(24-0)
12.09....14.53(47-8)
1.82.....2.01(6-7)
55.10....49.88
15.60....14.28
38.70....46.63(152-11)
3.81.....4.38(14-4.5)
42.00....49.21(161-5)
4:57.00..4:31.0
I should be able to go into the decathlon next week pain-free, which will be a first. I'm more apprehensive about the heat because the forcast is still for near 100. I'll have to make sure I drink enough so that I don't get cramps like I did last year in Joplin. Here's workout videos from yesterdays vertical jump practice:
The high jump is over a bungee around 6'. taking off too far out.
the vault is 12-6 with a 14' 155 from 6steps(81')
Sunday, May 15, 2011
Hayward Classic - Videos - Mens 110 Hurdles - Hayward Classic 2011
Hurdles at Hayward classic. last hurdle was in the wrong place and threw me off a bit. I had to 5 step
Hayward Classic - Videos - Mens 110 Hurdles - Hayward Classic 2011
Hayward Classic - Videos - Mens 110 Hurdles - Hayward Classic 2011
Thursday, May 12, 2011
Finally all healthy again...
So I was sick with this upper respiratory cough for most of April really. I got sick on March 29, got better enough to workout again April 7, then had a relapse April 19, then finally was able to start working out again, albeit while still coughing some and with a drippy nose, on may 1. Only in the past week has the cough totally gone away. It's hard to know how much the sickness hurt me, because the forced rest before the outdoor season might have been some benefit also. The weather has just been horrible this spring, and that's been a real hamper also(I think it contributed to my cough as well). I've had some good technical work lately, and continue to improve in the vault. My shoulder seems to be all cured - it's almost too good to be true, because I really thought the pain would never go away as long as I was training for the decathlon. I've been throwing the javelin and the javelin ball almost as much as I want, and I KNOW this will help my javelin score, even if it's still not fantastic. I really don't know how far I'll throw. Two days ago I ran two 100m's in 11.5 and 11.6 with a walking start, so I was happy with that, because I know I can do it even faster in hotter weather later in the season. I'm doing three events on Saturday in the Hayward Classic in Eugene, the LJ, hurdles and 400, so that'll give me some practice and tell me what I need to work on the the decathlon in Dallas June 11 and 12. I think the records are in reach despite my bad April, but because my muscles and joints are healthy, it bodes well.
Monday, April 18, 2011
Goin' for the next Record
Training is going well in preparation for the outdoor season. My plan is to do two or three meets in May before doing decathlons on June 11th, and July 6th. That gives me two chances to get a record, either the AR or WR. Either will do... The terrible weather this spring in Oregon and the fact that I was sick for almost two weeks put me a little behind, but I'm catching up quickly. I've been vaulting a lot, lots of jumps, and I'm finally seeing it pay off. I've had some good jumps getting upside down, and jumped 12' yesterday from a 4 step (55') approach on a small pole, so that was pretty cool. My shoulder and hip haven't been hurting when I do javelin drills so I'm hoping that I can throw at least 135 in a decathlon if I can keep training. My PB's from meets and practice over the last year add up to about 7850 on the new age graded tables, which is more than 200 points above the WR, so it's within reach.
I've had some decent running workouts, but I need to keep up the mileage so my 1500 doesn't drop off. Today I did 6 reps up the hill in front of our house, about 140m up a pretty steep hill, it's about the hardest running workout you can do I think. I did hurt my heel yesterday hurdling, I really can't believe I hurt it again in the same place, but I don't think it's too bad, hopefully it'll go away quickly. I'll go easy on the jumping for a few days and see what happens.
I've had some decent running workouts, but I need to keep up the mileage so my 1500 doesn't drop off. Today I did 6 reps up the hill in front of our house, about 140m up a pretty steep hill, it's about the hardest running workout you can do I think. I did hurt my heel yesterday hurdling, I really can't believe I hurt it again in the same place, but I don't think it's too bad, hopefully it'll go away quickly. I'll go easy on the jumping for a few days and see what happens.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011
World Record Number 2
Yahoo, broke my record by 57 points for a total of 4036. Here's the event-by-event: I got a pretty good start in the hurdles, better than the week before in the masters exhibition race at senior nationals, but still not perfect. I got a good push, but still stood up a bit quick. I think I can still take a couple tenths out of my start to the second hurdle. Some of that will come from doing more resistance starts and sled pushing over the rest of the spring training. In the middle of the race I was fairly smooth, but was sitting back or snapping to erect after clearing the hurdle. I need to work on bucking the hurdle and keeping some forward lean from hurdle to hurdle to maintain the momentum better. Time: 8.94, which I was satisfied with. For the long jump, we were forced to jump in the secondary pit which was a crummy plywood runway with no board, just the squishy plywood from which to jump. My first jump was a very close foul, and probably at 20', so that was bad. My second jump I went safe and jumped from about 14" behind the board, so it was only 18-8. At this point I was freaking out, so I moved back to my longer 116' runup and gave it all I had and came up with 5.97m or 19-7, which I still wasn't happy with, but that was ok considering the first two jumps. I was still ahead of record pace, but not by nearly as much as I had hoped. I moved to the shot and felt good, and really connected on my second throw, 12.09m or 39-8 for PB number 2. Only 10cm farther than last year, but still very good considering I didn't know if I'd even throw 37'. So now I was pumped again and went over to the high jump pretty confident that I would get the record. My warmup felt smooth and I started at 1.66 which I made first time, then went to 1.72, first time clearance, then 1.75, first time clearance by a mile, then second time clearance at 1.78 again by several cm. At this point I was pretty sure I'd get the record. I made 1.81 again on second clearance, and almost made 1.84 on the third try. I really should have made it. I'm jumping too close to the right standard, so I need to move down the bar so I'm clearing over the lowest point. So now I needed about 3:14 to break my record. I knew I would do that, but I was dreading the altitude, and it did really hurt me so I only ran 3:08.18. That was disappointing after running that 2:59 in a workout, but I was on the track afterwards, so it really hurt.
After the event, I immediately started thinking about the pentathlon in Kamloops, and first decided not to do it, but after a couple days changed my mind because I think I'm really peaking well and can do better. So, I'm leaving in two days to drive up to Canada and do it all over again. I certainly don't want to, but they don't hand out records based on a written application.
On the second day of the championships I also won the long jump and hurdles with a 6.20 in the same pit as the day before, and a 9.06 in the hurdles. That long jump was very good for that pit, I think it might have been a 21-0 or 6.40m in the real pit. Bummer, but I'm totally confident that I can get that distance during the rest of the season. So, see you next week with the results from Kamloops.
I have good video from the meet, and will work on getting it edited for the web.
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